Workers Sliders

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    jhawk886

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    Workers Sliders

    Post by jhawk886 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:07 pm

    Alright guys, I've came up with a set of adjusted sliders to try and bring us closer to what real life numbers are for statistics and to make the computer a little more competitive.

    I've played numerous games to try and get these right. Generally how I base it, is that I play against myself, for instance I play as KU against KU. I want the computer to be able to beat me in this game since we should be equally matched. Note: I don't want it to beat me every time, I just want it to be competitive and if it has a good game, to be able to pull out the win.

    I just played 3 games with exclusively this set. I played as KU against KU and in a very tough fought game, I lost 27-24. I could've taken a field goal and went into overtime but I was on the 2 and went for the win and got stopped. I then played as KU against Western Kentucky and beat them pretty handily, 45-10. And then I just played as KU against Oklahoma and in an insane game, somehow pulled out the win in double OT 35-31.

    So I think these are pretty good in that they give realistic statistics, and allow for a good, competitive game from the CPU from the teams that should give you good games. The teams that you should beat pretty easily, you still can, given that you don't make too many mistakes. But this gives it the feel of "Any given Saturday". So this is what I've come up with:

    Speed Threshold: 0

    Penalties
    100 Offsides
    90 False Start
    55 Holding
    55 Facemask
    100 Offensive PI
    100 Defensive PI
    100 KR/PR Int
    55 Clipping
    100 Int Grounding
    100 Roughing the QB
    100 Roughing the K

    Human CPU
    10 05 QB Accuracy
    20 10 Pass Blocking
    50 50 WR Catching
    50 50 RB Ability
    50 75 Run Blocking
    50 60 Pass Coverage
    25 05 Pass Rush
    05 05 Interceptions
    15 60 Rush Defense
    45 60 Tackling
    00 00 FG Power
    25 50 FG Accuracy
    50 100 Punt Power
    50 100 Punt Accuracy
    45 45 Kickoff Power


    Now granted, given that I won the NC and am undefeated in both leagues so far, I may be slightly better than the average user in here (not trying to be conceited), so that's why I've posted these, so that you guys can try them out and give feedback on if we might need to make them a tad easier.

    I'm doing this now so that we can try and get these figured out before the season starts so that we don't have mid-season tweaking. I also think it's a good time to figure these out since a lot of us are sitting around waiting for offseason advances. So if you have some time to play a couple games and give feedback, please do.

    In addition, if you're going to provide some feedback, please play more than one game. One game is not enough for you to get adjusted to the new slider set and figure out what you might need to tweak to perform better. One thing for instance is that in general you will need to throw more shorter passes (like in real life), with the CPU pass coverage improved, the down the field passes most of us have been getting the majority of our yards with (as evidenced by the average yards per reception), won't be open as often. You will have to run more underneath routes like crossing routes and the like to pick the defenders and get open. The speed threshold being set to 0 is mainly for pass coverage. With the last patch changing pass coverage, defenders now don't break on the ball or the route before they should, which is good. But we need to lower the threshold so that they can catch back up to the receiver after the cut and catch, otherwise the receiver has a ton of room.

    You can test them out however you feel is adequate, but if you feel they're too hard because you can't beat Alabama with Tennessee, that's not what I'm going for, and I don't think we should want that. So play a couple games, and let me know what you think.
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    splff3000

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    Re: Workers Sliders

    Post by splff3000 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:32 pm

    jhawk886 wrote:Alright guys, I've came up with a set of adjusted sliders to try and bring us closer to what real life numbers are for statistics and to make the computer a little more competitive.

    I've played numerous games to try and get these right. Generally how I base it, is that I play against myself, for instance I play as KU against KU. I want the computer to be able to beat me in this game since we should be equally matched. Note: I don't want it to beat me every time, I just want it to be competitive and if it has a good game, to be able to pull out the win.

    I just played 3 games with exclusively this set. I played as KU against KU and in a very tough fought game, I lost 27-24. I could've taken a field goal and went into overtime but I was on the 2 and went for the win and got stopped. I then played as KU against Western Kentucky and beat them pretty handily, 45-10. And then I just played as KU against Oklahoma and in an insane game, somehow pulled out the win in double OT 35-31.

    So I think these are pretty good in that they give realistic statistics, and allow for a good, competitive game from the CPU from the teams that should give you good games. The teams that you should beat pretty easily, you still can, given that you don't make too many mistakes. But this gives it the feel of "Any given Saturday". So this is what I've come up with:

    Speed Threshold: 0

    Penalties
    100 Offsides
    90 False Start
    55 Holding
    55 Facemask
    100 Offensive PI
    100 Defensive PI
    100 KR/PR Int
    55 Clipping
    100 Int Grounding
    100 Roughing the QB
    100 Roughing the K

    Human CPU
    10 05 QB Accuracy
    20 10 Pass Blocking
    50 50 WR Catching
    50 50 RB Ability
    50 75 Run Blocking
    50 60 Pass Coverage
    25 05 Pass Rush
    05 05 Interceptions
    15 60 Rush Defense
    45 60 Tackling
    00 00 FG Power
    25 50 FG Accuracy
    50 100 Punt Power
    50 100 Punt Accuracy
    45 45 Kickoff Power


    Now granted, given that I won the NC and am undefeated in both leagues so far, I may be slightly better than the average user in here (not trying to be conceited), so that's why I've posted these, so that you guys can try them out and give feedback on if we might need to make them a tad easier.

    I'm doing this now so that we can try and get these figured out before the season starts so that we don't have mid-season tweaking. I also think it's a good time to figure these out since a lot of us are sitting around waiting for offseason advances. So if you have some time to play a couple games and give feedback, please do.

    In addition, if you're going to provide some feedback, please play more than one game. One game is not enough for you to get adjusted to the new slider set and figure out what you might need to tweak to perform better. One thing for instance is that in general you will need to throw more shorter passes (like in real life), with the CPU pass coverage improved, the down the field passes most of us have been getting the majority of our yards with (as evidenced by the average yards per reception), won't be open as often. You will have to run more underneath routes like crossing routes and the like to pick the defenders and get open. The speed threshold being set to 0 is mainly for pass coverage. With the last patch changing pass coverage, defenders now don't break on the ball or the route before they should, which is good. But we need to lower the threshold so that they can catch back up to the receiver after the cut and catch, otherwise the receiver has a ton of room.

    You can test them out however you feel is adequate, but if you feel they're too hard because you can't beat Alabama with Tennessee, that's not what I'm going for, and I don't think we should want that. So play a couple games, and let me know what you think.

    Good luck with getting people to test these out lol. I practically begged people to test out the sliders before I started the season and I assume no one did because, right after the season started, I got all kinds of complaints. I'll take a look at them. If nothing else, they may help me tweak the current slider set.
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    gameface1324

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    Re: Workers Sliders

    Post by gameface1324 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:39 pm

    Is there a problem with current sliders? We had ppl losing to CPU. Just saying.
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    jhawk886

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    Re: Workers Sliders

    Post by jhawk886 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:53 pm

    gameface1324 wrote:Is there a problem with current sliders? We had ppl losing to CPU. Just saying.
    Very rarely did anyone ever lose to the CPU, except Kid (sorry Kid lol), and often people would beat, sometimes even blow out, much better teams. There was a problem here, but is especially bad in Rivals. The main thing is as far as stats are concerned, our average offense yards per game was 430. Only 17 schools averaged better than that last season. We also averaged 35 points a game, only 12 teams did that last year. To have our averages that high, with some users averaging more than anyone did last season, that's not acceptable if we're wanting a realistic sim league. So our offense needs to be nerfed considerably.

    Defensively, we on average allowed 327 yards per game and 22 points. Both of those are well below where they should be. Those stats average a top 20 defense. Our average should be closer to the NCAA average. Granted we have better teams so it doesn't necessarily need to be identical to that, but we shouldn't be averaging top 20s on both O and D.

    Also it should be more difficult to beat the great teams. When most users can beat a great team (A- and above) with a mediocre-good team, then it's too easy.
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    splff3000

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    Re: Workers Sliders

    Post by splff3000 on Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:49 pm

    jhawk886 wrote:
    Very rarely did anyone ever lose to the CPU, except Kid (sorry Kid lol), and often people would beat, sometimes even blow out, much better teams. There was a problem here, but is especially bad in Rivals. The main thing is as far as stats are concerned, our average offense yards per game was 430. Only 17 schools averaged better than that last season. We also averaged 35 points a game, only 12 teams did that last year. To have our averages that high, with some users averaging more than anyone did last season, that's not acceptable if we're wanting a realistic sim league. So our offense needs to be nerfed considerably.

    Defensively, we on average allowed 327 yards per game and 22 points. Both of those are well below where they should be. Those stats average a top 20 defense. Our average should be closer to the NCAA average. Granted we have better teams so it doesn't necessarily need to be identical to that, but we shouldn't be averaging top 20s on both O and D.

    Also it should be more difficult to beat the great teams. When most users can beat a great team (A- and above) with a mediocre-good team, then it's too easy.

    Yeah, and we had this discussion before. It's not necessarily the sliders that's the problem. It's the playcalling. Now sliders may stand to be tweaked some and I will look into that. What you are going to do is nerf the entire game to get realistic stats but it's not possible because the cpu doesn't play realistic. As long as the cpu sends all out blitzes on 3rd and long, you're gonna have a lot of yards, big plays, and scores on offense. As long as the cpu keeps trying 56 and 57 yd fg's, you're gonna have a lot of scores because of the field position. As long as the cpu runs options with immobile QB's, you're gonna have top 10 defenses.

    The goal I have when I'm setting up the sliders is not to mimic real college stats, but to make the game fair and fun. It's no fun getting real college stats if CB's are running routes before the WR's. It's no fun getting real college stats if every scrub RB can run 200 yds because your defensive players just stand there waiting to get blocked. It's no fun getting real college stats when your WR's have 11 drops in a game. These are all things you have to take into consideration.

    Another thing you have to take into consideration is the variable skill levels of ALL the members of the OD. I beat Bama 27-7, but then they turned around and beat Texas A%M in the bowl game. How do you tweak for that? As you said, your skill level is higher than others, therefore it will take more to give you a challenge. Having said that, last season you went undefeated but you had a 35-28 game against BYU, a 24-17 game against Southern Miss, and a 17-7 game against Kansas St. Neither of those programs are powerhouse programs. Throw in the user games that you had and I'd say at least half of your games were competitive. It's the cpu so there will definitely be some blowouts. You can also schedule more humans if you want to have more competitive games.

    It's like I told Urbs when he wanted to increase the user pass accuracy in Rivals to better match the completion % of real life. This isn't real life. The stats are not going to be like real life. When you adjust sliders based on stats, you're asking for trouble. That's when you start seeing all kinds of bullshit that makes people frustrated with the game. The game isn't a simulation. It will never be. To try to get realistic stats from something that's not a sim is trouble waiting to happen.

    Now having said all of that. I'm glad you did this. I really appreciate your efforts and you can best believe I will try these out and see if they improve some of the areas of the game that are lacking with the current sliders. I agree with you 100% that the cpu games should be harder. They shouldn't be based on stats though. They should be based on matchups and what happens on the field. Just because I can beat Alabama 27-7 doesn't mean the next man can.

    Like I said, I'm going to check out the sliders to see if they improve an area of the game that may be lacking. I can't promise that I will change anything, but I will look into it. What I can promise is that your schedule this year coming up will be more difficult than it was last year. I don't like to change the default schedule in year 1 too much because they are actual real schedules. I'll change it to add another human game if needed and take off fcs schools, but that's it for year 1. In year 2, you will see a step up in difficulty for sure. Expect to see Boise and TCU lol and some other SEC team I can fit in there. That's if it's not taken with home and home games.

    Anyway, I appreciate the effort. All the work done will not be in vain.
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    stoptherun

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    Re: Workers Sliders

    Post by stoptherun on Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:51 pm

    played 2 games. both needed last minute comebacks to get the win. The first game I used Texas against Texas A&M and won 41-33, but i scored 27 unanswered in the last 6 min for the comeback win. Then I beat Florida 14-13 using Georgia. I liked playing the competitive games. U def have to bring your A game to win. Only complaint is that i saw about 20 knowshon/reggie bush style hurdles that u should only see like once or twice a year. The CPU run game is def juiced.
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    jhawk886

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    Re: Workers Sliders

    Post by jhawk886 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:37 pm

    stoptherun wrote:played 2 games. both needed last minute comebacks to get the win. The first game I used Texas against Texas A&M and won 41-33, but i scored 27 unanswered in the last 6 min for the comeback win. Then I beat Florida 14-13 using Georgia. I liked playing the competitive games. U def have to bring your A game to win. Only complaint is that i saw about 20 knowshon/reggie bush style hurdles that u should only see like once or twice a year. The CPU run game is def juiced.
    Thanks man for trying them out. Yeah, I think we should have to bring our A game for CPU games as well as user games. It makes the season more fun I think when it feels more realistic and you have really tough games and maybe even lose to some CPU teams. Everyone always wants to go undefeated, but realistically that's not very common. And if you do go undefeated, or have just 1 or 2 loses, with these sliders, or something comparable to them, that would actually mean something.
    As far as the CPU running game, yeah I noticed the hurdles when I played Oklahoma, but I think that's mainly due to the better teams' O-Line pancaking the D-Line and linebackers. Then the backs hurdle over them on the ground, which you're right we don't see very often in RL but the backs in real life are smarter and run around the player rather than jump over him lol. But yeah, in generally I did boost the CPU running game because it was just too easy to stop.
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    gameface1324

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    Re: Workers Sliders

    Post by gameface1324 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:05 pm

    I just wish they would fix PA passing mechanic on this years game. All these tuner updates and patches, and not a single mention. The Play action and the pass rushing mechanics are both screwed on this game
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    jhawk886

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    Re: Workers Sliders

    Post by jhawk886 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:12 pm

    gameface1324 wrote:I just wish they would fix PA passing mechanic on this years game. All these tuner updates and patches, and not a single mention. The Play action and the pass rushing mechanics are both screwed on this game
    Yeah, I agree with you there. The two biggest gameplay flaws are the CPU playcalling and the CPUs ability to learn your tendencies. There is nothing we can do to fix the CPU never biting on play action and the stupid CPU playcalling.
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    jusblaze09

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    Re: Workers Sliders

    Post by jusblaze09 on Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:45 pm

    I don't see a reason to change the user sliders we have. As far as the CPU goes, raise their run blocking up to 65 at most, pass coverage to 55, and run D to around 40-50, maybe 55.

    Splff, what sliders did you have to adjust early on.
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    urbanslegend05

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    Re: Workers Sliders

    Post by urbanslegend05 on Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:42 am

    Splff, what sliders did you end up going with? I tested these out a couple of times and took a few things from it and adjusted the season 1 and 2 rival sliders. Check out what I posted them as and let me know what you think. Also, what are you going with this year?
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    gameface1324

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    Re: Workers Sliders

    Post by gameface1324 on Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:10 am

    I know one thing, I can tell a huge diff in my OD I run since the last tuner set. CPU CBs jump the routes and do the "run the route before the WR does" alot more frequently on same settings as before, and multiple teams were having issues with, Human CBs continuing to run down field when CPU WRs would break off a patter on hooks and 9 routes or whatever

    Had to adjust sliders accordingly
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    splff3000

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    Re: Workers Sliders

    Post by splff3000 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:03 pm

    urbanslegend05 wrote:Splff, what sliders did you end up going with? I tested these out a couple of times and took a few things from it and adjusted the season 1 and 2 rival sliders. Check out what I posted them as and let me know what you think. Also, what are you going with this year?

    They're pretty close to the same as what we had before. Just a few changes here and there but the games seem like they're ok right now so far. I think I adjusted cpu run blocking from 55 to 60 and adjusted cpu rush defense from 25 to 35. I think that's it. My slider set was already tweaked to make the cpu difficult so their wasn't that many changes needed IMO.

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